Although Skilling is not an explosives expert, he says there are people who do know enough about building demolition to bring a structure like the Trade Center down.
"I would imagine that if you took the top expert in that type of work and gave him the assignment of bringing these buildings down with explosives, I would bet that he could do it."
There are a great many kooks out there with a great many conspiracy theories. So, when I stumbled across Explosive Testimony: Revelations about the Twin Towers in the 9/11 Oral Histories, by David Ray Griffin, I checked his sources.
Some of the information he presents is from interviews with the New York Fire Department, conducted in the months following the 9/11 attack. The transcripts of those interviews were published by the New York Times: New York Times oral histories: transcripts of interviews from 9/11.
Those interviews tell quite a story. Read some of them, as you have time.
For the purposes of this post, I will present excerpts from some of the transcripts. Key quotes from these excerpts are collected at the very end of this post.
As you are reading this, please pay attention to the titles of the witnesses being interviewed. These are experienced members of the New York Fire Department, some of whom have risen to high rank.
Battalion Chief Brian Dixon
File No. 9110166
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN DIXON
Interview Date: October 25, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
MR. CAMPBELL: Today's date is October 25th. The time is 12:41 p.m. This is Patrick Campbell, fire marshal of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm conducting an interview regarding the events of September 11th. I'm here with Battalion Chief Brian Dixon in his office. Also present is --
MR. STEPONAITIS: Fire Marshal Stephen Steponaitis, Fire Department.
MR. CAMPBELL: You can identify yourself too.
CHIEF DIXON: Battalion Chief Brian Dixon.
Q. Chief, we're conducting an interview, just like I said, regarding the events of September 11th. What we're looking for is from the time that you became aware of the incident up until any time during the day. We're looking for people you'd seen, just what you noticed around you. You can just go on on your own.
. . .
A: . . . Ganci was just figuring out where they were putting people. I was watching the fire, watching the people jump and hearing a noise and looking up and seeing -- it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out.
I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out. Then I guess in some sense of time we looked at it and realized, no, actually it just collapsed. That's what blew out the windows, not that there was an explosion there but that windows blew out.
Firefighter Christopher Fenyo
File No. 9110295
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER CHRISTOPHER FENYO
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN: Today's date is December 11, 2001. The time is 12:31. This is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the Safety Battalion of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm conducting an interview with Christopher Fenyo of Engine 35 in the quarters of Engine 35.
Q. Chris, just tell us what you saw on September 11th.
A. This is Firefighter 6th Grade Christopher Fenyo. . . .
. . .
There was an explosion at the top of the Trade Center and a piece of Trade Center flew across the West Side Highway and hit the Financial Center, and Arthur went to hook up with another chauffeur to the Financial Center.
. . .
About a couple minutes after George came back to me is when the south tower from our perspective exploded from about midway up the building.
. . .
At that point a debate began to rage because the perception was that the building looked like it had been taken out with charges. We had really no concept of the damage on the east side of 2 World Trade Center at that point, and at that point many people had felt that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade, and officers were gathering companies together and the officers were debating whether or not to go immediately back in or to see what was going to happen with 1 World Trade at that point. The debate ended pretty quickly because 1 World Trade came down.
Battalion Chief Dominick DeRubbio
File No. 9110064
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
BATTALION CHIEF DOMINICK DeRUBBIO
Interview Date: October 12, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
MR. CUNDARI: The time is 10:15, and this is George Cundari with Murray Murad from the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm conducting an interview with the following individual.
Q. Please state your name, rank, title and assigned command.
A. My name is Battalion Chief Dominick DeRubbio. I'm assigned to Division 8. I'm doing the 25R group in Battalion 21. That morning I was surplus, so I was assigned to the field comm. unit.
. . .
A. . . . After a while we were looking up at the tower, and all of a sudden someone said it's starting to come down.
Q. This would be the north tower coming down?
A. This would be the first one.
Q. Or the south tower?
A. This one here. It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.
Paramedic Daniel Rivera
File No. 9110035
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
PARAMEDIC DANIEL RIVERA
Interview Date: October 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
MS. BASTEDENBECK: Today is October 10th, 2001. The time is 1520 hours. My name is Chris Bastedenbeck. I work for the New York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an interview with the following individual.
Please state your name, your rank, your title, where you're assigned.
PARAMEDIC RIVERA: Daniel Rivera, paramedic. I'm assigned to Battalion 31, Station 36 in Brooklyn.
Q. I'd just like you to give me the events of September 11th, 2001.
. . .
A. . . . Then that's when -- I kept on walking close to the south tower, and that's when that building collapsed.
Q. How did you know that it was coming down?
A. That noise. It was a noise.
Q. What did you hear? What did you see?
A. It was a frigging noise. At first thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down.
Q. What did you do?
A. Run. . . .
. . .
A. . . . Then the next thing you know, the next building collapsed. I was right in front of that building.
Q. So you were still over there when the second building collapsed?
A. Right, because I ran back. Not too bright of me, of course. I ran right back in, and I was right -- I could actually touch the building when it collapsed, the second time when it collapsed.
But again, I was prepared because I heard that same noise. It was like a waterfall noise. That's when I ran.
Firefighter Edward Cachia
File No. 9110251
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER EDWARD CACHIA
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
CHIEF KENAHAN: Today's date is December 6th, 2001. The time is 2 p.m. This is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the New York City Fire Department, Safety Division. I'm conducting an interview with Ed Cachia of Engine 53.
Q. Please state your recollections for September 11th.
. . .
A. . . . As my officer and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.
With that everybody was just stunned for a second or two, looking at the tower coming down.
Chief Frank Cruthers
File No. 9110179
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
CHIEF FRANK CRUTHERS
Interview Date: October 31, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
MR. RIGNOLA: This is Salvatore Rignola. I'm here with my partner Fire Marshal Cliff Krug. Today's date is Wednesday, October 31, 2001. The time is approximately 9:50. I'm at 9 Metrotech, 7th floor, speaking to Chief Cruthers, who is the Citywide Tour Commander. Chief, I'm going to ask you some questions about the events that happened on September 11, the year 2001.
Q. Tell me when you initially received the alarm and how you responded and where you went.
. . .
A. . . . There were some units there, along with a Battalion Chief and I gave them some instructions as to what to try to do. And while I was still in that immediate area, the south tower, 2 World Trade Center, there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.
Firefighter James Curran
File No. 9110412
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JAMES CURRAN
Interview Date: December 30, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: December 30, 2001. The time is now 1233 hours. This is Battalion Chief Malkin of the Safety Battalion. I'm conducting an interview today with Firefighter sixth grade James Curran of Ladder Company 8. We are in the quarters of Ladder Company 8. There is nobody else in the room. This interview is in regards to the events of September 11, 2001. What follows is the interview with Fireman Curran.
Q. Take it away.
. . .
A. . . . We started filing out and following the line of the building. I got just to underneath the north walkway. A guy started screaming to run. When I got underneath the north bridge I looked back and you heard it, I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. Looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed. . . .
Captain Karin Deshore
File No. 9110192
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
CAPTAIN KARIN DESHORE
Interview Date: November 7, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
INVESTIGATOR TAMBASCO: Today is November 7. I'm Mike Tambasco with the World Trade Center Task Force. We are doing an interview with Captain Karin Deshore of Battalion 46 into the events of September 11 at the World Trade Center. Interview time is beginning at 0549 a.m.
Q. Captain, would you be good enough to tell us your story?
. . .
A. . . . I had no clue what was going on. I never turned around because a sound came from somewhere that I never heard before. Some people compared it with an airplane. It was the worst sound of a rolling sound, not a thunder. I can't explain it, what it was. All I know is -- and a force started to come hit me in my back. I can't explain it. You had to be there. All I know is I had to run because I thought there was an explosion.
I ran about 10, 12 feet up this little grassy hill and by then this force and this sound caught up with me already. I threw myself behind the last support column of the pedestrian overpass. It became pitch dark. The sound got worse, the force just kept passing me. At times I thought it was like an orange light maybe, coming past me.
I was unaware what was happening. I thought it was just a major explosion. I didn't know the building was collapsing. I was sitting with my left side towards the support beam, total darkness, total noise. I felt beyond alone. I felt desolated. I felt like, all I could say was people think about their families and whatever. All I kept saying to myself within me I don't want to die, I don't want to die, I don't want to die.
I can't tell you how long it was before it died down. I just felt like the darkness the loneliness and being alone was the worst thing I ever experienced in my life and not being able to breathe. There was no air. Whatever this explosion was simply sucked all the oxygen out of the air. You couldn't breathe and the feeling of suffocation, I can't explain no further on that.
. . .
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
I went inside and I told everybody that the other building or there was an explosion occurring up there and I said I think we have another major explosion. I don't know if we are all going to be safe here. I told them I can't force you, but I don't know if we are going to be safe here. I'm going to try to get as far away from this building as possible. Unbeknown to me, a half a block down was the water.
. . .
So here these explosions are getting bigger and louder and bigger and louder and I told everybody if this building totally explodes, still unaware that the other building had collapsed, I'm going in the water. I said I can swim. . . .
Again, I didn't see what was happening behind me, but knowing of all the explosions I thought here was another explosion coming and this sound again and this wave of this force again. I just jumped on the boat, closed the door with my left hand and just sank down to my knees. Here whatever it was just came right at us again.
Firefighter Kenneth Rogers
File No. 9110290
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER KENNETH ROGERS
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN: December 10, 2001. The time is 10:48 a.m. This is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the Safety Battalion of the New York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an interview with Kenny Rogers, Firefighter first from Ladder 16 in the quarters of Ladder 16.
Q. All right Kenny, please give me any information you have regarding the events of September 11.
. . .
A. . . . Meanwhile we were standing there with about five companies and we were just waiting for our assignment and then there was an explosion in the south tower, which according to this map, this exposure just blew out in flames. A lot of guys left at that point. I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.
Firefighter Richard Banaciski
File No. 9110253
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD BANACISKI
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN: December 6, 2001. The time is 3:30 p.m. This is Battalion Chief Kenahan of the Safety Battalion of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm conducting an interview with Rich Banaciski of Ladder 22.
Q. Please tell us the events of September 11 as you recall them?
. . .
A. . . . We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.
Assistant Commissioner Stephen Gregory
File No. 9110008
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GREGORY
Interview Date: October 3, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
MR. McALLISTER: This is Kevin McAllister from the Bureau of Administration. It's October 3rd, 2001, 1540 hours. I'm with Jim Drury from the Bureau of Investigations and Trials and with Commissioner Stephen Gregory of the Bureau of Communications. We're in Commissioner Gregory's office and we are now commencing the interview.
COMMISSIONER GREGORY: On Tuesday, September 11th, I was sitting in my office, it was just shortly before 9:00 o'clock, having a cup of coffee, and I heard on the scanner in my office on the PD SOD frequency police units frantically screaming about a plane that had just crashed into the World Trade Center. . .
. . .
A. . . . I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.
I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building coming down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. I never met the man before in my life. He knew who I was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me up, you know, how are you doing? How's everything? And, oh, by the way did you... It was just a little strange.
Q. On the television pictures it appeared as well, before the first collapse, that there was an explosion up on the upper floors.
A. I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes. I don't know how far down this was already. I mean, we had heard the noise but, you know, I don't know.
Deputy Commissioner Thomas Fitzpatrick
File No. 9110001
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FITZPATRICK
Interview Date: October 1, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY: We can begin by stating your name and your rank.
MR. FITZPATRICK: Tom Fitzpatrick, Deputy Commissioner for Administration, assigned to the Commissioners office.
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY: Just for the record, its Monday, October 1, 2:40 p.m., conference room 8N6 at headquarters.
MR. FITZPATRICK: On the morning of the event I was in my office and I was alerted by Commissioner Feehan and one of the secretaries outside that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. I looked out the window, saw a slice in the side of the north tower, and then Bill came down the hall and said let's go. So we responded from headquarters.
. . .
A. . . . We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. I assume now that that was either windows starting to collapse like tinsel or something. Then the building started to come down. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.
it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out.
At that point a debate began to rage because the perception was that the building looked like it had been taken out with charges.
It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion
At first thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that.
It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.
there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.
everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.
It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.
You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw.
My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.
2 comments:
hey YD...too difficult for me to read every word as I attended many wakes and funerals of firefighters here in NYC.............truly is a great thing to keep their memory alive.
Yeah, it's some pretty disturbing stuff.
The key points are the last twelve quotes at the bottom. They tie into the theme The Killing.
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